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I support increasing the minimum wage, but should a national baseline be tied to the cost of a tiny studio apartment where rent is highest? I’m sitting in a 4 bedroom, 3 bath house “in the woods” and my cost of housing is lower than this: https://universeodon.com/@LadyDragonfly/109853277664537670
Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)  
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This is a serious problem for economics. For any given economic activity, there's a trade-off between "fairness" (what you're asking about) and "efficiency."

It's initially efficient to set a national baseline everyone must follow, but that will probably break down over time. It's also not "fair" in the sense you discuss.

Where to draw the efficiency/fairness line is at the heart of many economic debates, but too far in either direction and things break down.
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@ovid I remain surprised that big city costs of living, housing keep increasing. It seems unsustainable for the rich to rely on the labor of the poor who have to spend hours commuting every day to housing they can afford. The wealth gap keeps widening. I don’t understand how that system doesn’t collapse.
@Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)  
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I think you're watching the slow-motion collapse right now.
gizmomathboy, FC
gizmomathboy, FC  
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@ovid the proposal wasn't a national baseline though.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the question.
@Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@gizmomathboy @ovid on re-reading their post I think you're right. They seem to be using "In my area" math. So their proposed federal minimum wage would vary wildly across the country.
@gizmomathboy, FC @Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
gizmomathboy, FC
gizmomathboy, FC  
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@ovid yep, not a nationwide, fixed wage but variable based on the cost for the shittiest housing possible.
@Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@gizmomathboy @ovid I want to set the bar at "safe, affordable" not "shittiest possible," but other than that I think I'm agreeing with you. :)
@gizmomathboy, FC @Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
gizmomathboy, FC
gizmomathboy, FC  
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@ovid it was more of a how I think most folks view studio apts :-)
@Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@gizmomathboy @ovid Some folks place a high value on dense, walkable, lots of exciting peopley things going on. I place a high value on wildlife and trees and being the fuck away from most people. Both preferences are valid. :)
@gizmomathboy, FC @Curtis "Ovid" Poe (he/him)
silverwizard
silverwizard  
Honestly?
Why shouldn't the minimum wage cover living anywhere? I mean - the minimum wage seems like it should be a reasonable living wage?

You might argue that rent speculation might be a different place to fight that - but it seems wrong to be like "the minimum wage shouldn't cover rent"
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@silverwizard the minimum wage should be a living wage. Housing, food, clothing, medical, education.

But NYC and SF are waaaay more out of whack than Omaha, Nebraska where I live. So a federal minimum wage based on NYC would be propping up those insane housing valuations, further enriching those landowners. Those valuations, rent prices should collapse.

I think some version of this formula could work. But locally, not nationally. Punish Omaha’s city council and mayor for not building enough affordable housing here. Don’t try to punish Omaha for NYC’s insanity. We can’t possibly afford that.
@silverwizard
silverwizard
silverwizard  
So I've always been in favour of a UBI based on a per-county goods market basket - and the UBI is the amount in that basket, with a centrally mandated basket of goods

But I think it's ok to let people in Nebraska be a little richer?
Martijn Vos
Martijn Vos  
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@silverwizard @Jay Hannah Yeah, I'm not a fan of giving more money to people who choose to live in expensive areas. That just drives up the prices there even more, and increases inequality. I prefer moderating the inequality by giving everybody the same. If there's more demand for workers in the expensive areas, then companies can always choose to way more than minimum wage.
@Jay Hannah @silverwizard
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@mcv @silverwizard nod. Selfishly I want to benefit from making lower cost of living choices. On the other hand, packing people like sardines (NYC) is better (per capita) for climate change. But disastrous for my personal mental health.
@Martijn Vos @silverwizard
Martijn Vos
Martijn Vos  
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@Jay Hannah @silverwizard I live in an expensive city (Amsterdam), but houses are way too expensive here already. Waiting lists for rent-controlled apartments are in decades now. Too many people already want to live here (and I can't blame them), but paying them extra for it is a bit much.

Although I don't want Amsterdam to become just a rich people's city either. It's a tough thing to balance. This city needs to become cheaper and other places need to become more attractive.
@Jay Hannah @silverwizard
Karin!
Karin!  
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I'm stuck on "1BR Studio apartment" (if it has a bedroom it's not a studio, right?)

I agree though, it has to be location dependent. That said I think the place based differences are going to even out a bit over the next couple of decades as more of the housing stock is purchased by large companies
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@nirak yes, apologies :)
Ya, see my other replies in other parts of these threads… Out of state rent seeking is huge and growing in Omaha, Code for Nebraska did a big project on that.
@Karin!
Karin!
Karin!  
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oh no need to apologize I took that language from the other post.

Do you know if that Code for Nebraska project is still up? If there is ever renewed interest in that group I would love to participate
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@nirak https://codefornebraska.github.io/landlord/
Renewed interest? I've been sitting in the Slack for 8 years now. People and projects come and go over the years... :)

Landlords of Omaha

Property information and housing code violations for rental properties in Omaha and Douglas County
codefornebraska.github.io
@Karin!
Karin!
Karin!  
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I had gone to some events a long time ago but it seemed then like it was kind of winding down at that point (and this was long before the pandemic, of course). I am probably just bad at keeping up.
Martijn Vos
Martijn Vos  
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Yeah, minimum wage definitely needs to cover rent, otherwise where will people live? And I don't think $28/h is all that unreasonable, although I also think $1400 rent is way too high. There need to be more affordable apartments.

If I understand the numbers correctly, welfare in NL is about €1000-1500. People on welfare need to be able to pay rent too.
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@mcv ya, give them money to pay the rent, or provide the housing. Either way is better than America which barely does the latter (“Section 8” vouchers to private owners).
@Martijn Vos
markiwang
markiwang  
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- I want the creation of a new wage called the "median wage"... That way, when a company creates jobs, politicians can correctly assign tax cuts/penalties. Adding a bunch of minimum wage jobs drags the standard of living down--this should be tax penalized. Adding a bunch of median wage (or higher) jobs increases the standard of living--this is worth giving tax cuts for. And the median (not minimum) wage should be tied to local standards of living.
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
Jay Hannah
Jay Hannah  
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@markiwang huh. Is there somewhere I can read more about that? (preferably podcasts lol) In my experience, unfortunately, municipalities are in a constant race to the bottom giving out tax breaks. e.g. TIF http://nebraska.tif.report/

Nebraska TIF Report 2021

Nebraska TIF Report - Tax Increment Financing: Nebraska TIF Report 2021
nebraska.tif.report
@markiwang
markiwang
markiwang  
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- not that i'm aware of. it occurred to me randomly---i'm sure the same thought has occurred to other people, but i've never bothered to look.
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