I want the conflict in #Gaza to end but the single-issue #Gaza voters act like the situation isn't nuanced.
Not everyone agrees there is a genocide going on. Genocide has a specific legal definition. Outside observers can *at best* guess at whether the requisite elements exist.
The whole "How can you support genocide?" reply on anything political is just about the dumbest, most mind-numbing position to parrot.
Stop being lazy and engage the issue or gtfo.
This entry was edited (3 months ago)
Alex P. 👹
•none of this can be disputed:
• routine massacres of civilians, including refugees
• non-combatants tortured to the point of death or maiming, including torture of a sexual nature
• famine conditions
• destruction of life-sustaining civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and water treatment facilities
• blockade of humanitarian resources
• targeted attacks on civilian medics and foreign aid workers
setting aside the label for a moment — how can anyone support *all this shit?*
Alex P. 👹 reshared this.
Eli Wallach's favorite Bass
•@JasonPerseus@mas.to
Your poor clients
To have someone this dishonest or willfully ignorant in charge of their life is harrowing
Alex P. 👹
•you're some sort of lawyer, right?
feel free to read South Africa's submission to the ICJ if you want a bunch of quotes of Israeli leaders saying they want to do genocidal shit to Gaza
that's an example of documented intent
someone who looks at that and says "looks like a genocide is happening!" isn't avoiding the issue — they've articulating a conclusion based on evidence
but, if their word choice is wrong somehow: u.s. weapons are being used to massacre civilians regularly
Alex P. 👹
•you want to "stop being lazy and engage?" engage with this, then:
the purpose of the international legal definition of genocide is to prevent genocide, not simply to force us all to sit quietly and obediently while we wait for the mass graves to be excavated by forensic archaeologists 30 years from now
Jason Perseus has moved
•@saddestrobots
Okay: and if it isn’t genocide?
Alex P. 👹
•a determination of genocide is not required to stop arming IDF units free-firing on civilians in Gaza or "intelligence agents" torturing people in both Gaza and the West Bank
it is absolutely ludicrous that high-ups in the State Department didn't even apply selective sanctions for the intentional double-tap assassination of the WCC workers, for example
it's also blatantly ridiculous that we're arming a state that interferes with the U.S. government's own attempts to deliver food
Alex P. 👹
•Jason Perseus has moved
•You mean Blinken who just flew in the middle of the night to the Middle East for emergency discussions on a ceasefire? He’s the one not doing anything and trying not to look? Ooooookay.
But yeah I don’t think we should be giving them weapons to keep doing that.
My point is that people are going to disagree because they don’t agree it’s genocide, and if you don’t agree it’s genocide then there isn’t an absolute morality. There are shades of gray.
Alex P. 👹
•yes, absolutely! Blinken, whose department has had a slow but continual trickle of defectors publicly resigning and saying they tried to do something but were summarily blocked by the big dogs upstairs, has no interest in answering the question of "is it genocide?" in any substantive way
from a policy position, it *cannot* be genocide because that would seriously complicate America's foreign policy towards its expansionist client state — that's the "shades of grey" view here
Jason Perseus has moved
•@saddestrobots
You are welcome to your conspiracy theories.
I think the government replaced all our tin foil with aluminum foil so they could read our minds. Some blame the cost of tin, but I know the truth.
Alex P. 👹
•it's not a conspiracy theory, it's a simple political calculation — it would be incredibly inconvenient for the U.S. government to declare that one of its closest allies and pet projects was committing genocide against 2 million people
(and I say "declare" because functionally it would be a declaration, not any kind of formal legal process — the secretary of state just announces it in press releases)
this is part of why Leahy action is scoped to, like, individual "units"
Claire, The Ultimate Worrier
•Jason Perseus has moved
•@waitworry @saddestrobots
Yeah it does mean something if it isn’t genocide.
Civilian death can be justified under IHL. It doesn’t mean civilians dying is a good thing, but it doesn’t mean that the US is obligated to act.
So if people don’t agree it’s genocide, then there is room for them to sit where they think it’s bad, but it’s not bad enough for them to act. If it’s genocide, there is no justification.
Alex P. 👹
•@waitworry
Leahy says "gross violation of human rights" is sufficient cause to cut off military aid and foreign military sales
State Department interprets murder of civilians as an example
Israeli media has documented "free-for-all violence" against unarmed civilians as widespread among IDF units:
https://www.972mag.com/israeli-soldiers-gaza-firing-regulations/
‘I’m bored, so I shoot’: The Israeli army’s approval of free-for-all violence in Gaza
Ben Reiff (+972 Magazine)Jason Perseus has moved
•@saddestrobots @waitworry
Okay? Clearly it’s nuanced: sufficient, not necessary. Each word you used has a specific definition. Not every murder is a violation of human rights. Not every IDF soldier murdering a civilian is doing so as part of a coordinated plan—criminals exist in the military too.
That’s my point. It’s nuanced and complicated and acting like it’s not is moronic.
Alex P. 👹
•@waitworry
read the article? if the rules of engagement say you can shoot up whoever you want whenever you want — to the point that it's causing friendly-fire incidents among trigger-happy soldiers — that's not an isolated incident
we have applied Leahy in other contexts, including against forces deployed in direct support of U.S. military units, for far, far less
Jason Perseus has moved
•@waitworry @saddestrobots
I think it very well could be a genocide and think it should stop, and that we should stop supplying weapons—but it isn’t some black and white situation compelling us to act. There is space to disagree and most people do.
Alex P. 👹
•@waitworry
it's an *incredibly* black-and-white situation given that the starting point of the whole thing is a state of continuing apartheid, blockade, and occupation with the explicit goal of ghettoizing Gaza and ethnically cleansing Palestinians from the West Bank
the main reason people disagree is that they think Palestinians deserve what's happening to them, or that it's a sad inevitability required to achieve some magical dream-Israel that they are obligated to support
Jason Perseus has moved
•@saddestrobots @waitworry
I think the most proximate starting point for the immediate conflict would be the civilian massacre by Hamas.
Otherwise we can just go around in circles because every act and reaction has justified the next for thousands of years.
No, the main reason people disagree is because there is actual disagreement and not everyone has to think and value the same things you do.
Alex P. 👹
•@waitworry
when the IDF starts shooting fish in a barrel you kinda have to ask how those fish all got in the barrel in the first place
you keep saying there's ample reason to disagree but you haven't offered any actual examples
silverwizard
Jason Perseus has moved
•@silverwizard @saddestrobots @waitworry
The guy killed someone!
Who cares if it was intentional murder of a child or self-defense against a rapist, the law isn’t related to morality!
Or maybe these legal distinctions matter to how we frame them morally.
silverwizard
Jason Perseus has moved
•@silverwizard @saddestrobots @waitworry
I don't recall saying that, so I shall not.
Bilal Barakat 🍉
•Alex P. 👹
•(OP got nuked so the thread is all broken now. Claire was sarcastically restating the lawyer guy's position.)
Claire, The Ultimate Worrier
•@saddestrobots @bifouba yeah I was mocking the weird OP
honestly kind of started to feel like that guy was just trolling
Alex P. 👹
•(it's clearly a pseudonym, no reason to stalk the guy imo)
Leonor
•bruh what the fuck do you mean theres no statement of intent you can look up several times that israeli state officials in charge of security have made statements straight up justifying the rape of civilians, Ben Gvir says this shit with a demonic shit eating grin knowing full well what the israeli army is doing
https://www.npr.org/2024/08/08/nx-s1-5057410/israel-detains-soldiers-on-allegations-of-sexual-assault-of-a-detainee-from-gaza
Alex P. 👹
•@leonor @waitworry
for example, i'm looking at this State Department press release declaring that genocide is happening against the Uyghur people in Xinjiang and the genocidal quotes from CPC-controlled media seem pretty similar to what half the Israeli cabinet says on camera every week
https://2017-2021.state.gov/determination-of-the-secretary-of-state-on-atrocities-in-xinjiang/
Jason Perseus has moved
•@leonor @saddestrobots @waitworry
Yes, and what amount of evidence is sufficient to prove that?
And is it possible for people to disagree on that? Yes.
Jason Perseus has moved
•@saddestrobots @leonor @waitworry
And look at all the outrage about that alleged genocide that is still ongoing. We're funding that one too.
Alex P. 👹
•@leonor @waitworry
states commit genocide just as easily as people order a pizza
but i think that's sorta undercutting your point about reasonable people disagreeing &c. &c. — we are *swimming* in a sea of genocide all over the globe and yet when the guy ordering the invasion and the guys shooting kids in the bombed-out streets are mugging at the camera going "i love exterminating the palestinians hyuk hyuk" very serious reasonable people can disagree about what they are after?
Jason Perseus has moved
•@saddestrobots @leonor @waitworry
I don't see how. Reasonable people clearly disagree and hold nuanced positions. That is literally my main point.
Everyone is claiming a morally absolutist position on a problem when people don't agree on what the problem is.
Alex P. 👹
•@leonor @waitworry
how do you propose to determine that these "reasonable people" are expressing a reasoned position and not, for example, engaging in diplomacy or PR?
where do you draw the line between "reasonable" disagreement about genocide and straightforward genocide denial? (or, for that matter, some kind of "nuanced" fancy PhD-waving carefully-structured genocide denial?)
AnarchoNinaWrites
•Jason Perseus has moved
•Aw, poor baby. 🥲
Take some time to collect yourself, you’re embarrassing yourself in front of the guests.
And Human (it/its)
•@AnarchoNinaWrites “Recent developments have seen a growing consensus among legal experts and international organizations that the situation in Palestine, particularly Gaza, constitutes genocide. Over 600 lawyers, including former senior judges and prominent academics, have formally urged the UK government to recognize the genocide risk and take measures, such as imposing sanctions on Israel. Additionally, UN Special Rapporteurs have identified “reasonable grounds” to believe that Israel’s actions meet the criteria for genocide, citing acts intended to destroy the Palestinian people in whole or in part. Amnesty International also highlights the alarming scale of destruction and dehumanizing rhetoric against Palestinians, indicating the real and present danger of genocide. The International Court of Justice (ICJ) is currently hearing cases that may further solidify these conclusions, with a focus on Israel’s potential breaches of the Genocide Convention.”
Why do you support genocide?