"we fund Matrix dev by selling encrypted messaging to governments, which includes police: if you don’t like that then please feel free to use a different app" May 9th, 2023 -@element
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"we fund Matrix dev by selling encrypted messaging to governments, which includes police: if you don’t like that then please feel free to use a different app" May 9th, 2023 -@element
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wakest ⁂
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •like this
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 and Haelwenn /элвэн/ like this.
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SQU∄▲KY P▲Nᐊ▲K∄S
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to SQU∄▲KY P▲Nᐊ▲K∄S • • •alcinnz
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •ari
in reply to alcinnz • • •alcinnz
in reply to ari • • •@ar I'd say there's a difference: Matrix as an organization is specifically courting cops.
If XMPP's devs didn't prod the US military to use their tech, then I don't hold this fact against them. That way lies madness!
ari
in reply to alcinnz • • •alcinnz
in reply to ari • • •alcinnz
in reply to alcinnz • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •like this
Haelwenn /элвэн/ and clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 like this.
Bill Seitz
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •So not shocking they'd go along with police involvement.
Bernard Marx
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •𝓼𝓮𝓻𝓪𝓹𝓪𝓽𝓱【ツ】☮(📍🇬🇧)
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •FoolishOwl
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
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wakest ⁂
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •Michael Downey 🚩
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •OK, so let's have 'em all give our tax money to Microsoft. 🤦🏽♂️
FoolishOwl
in reply to Michael Downey 🚩 • • •@downey A major reason for encrypted communications is to keep out police and state security, who have a strong interest in subverting the integrity of encryption. Anyone developing a secure communication tool would be conscious of this. To actively seek to market to police is an implicit betrayal of everyone who supported and relied on the project.
And just in general, you don't collaborate with police.
wakest ⁂ reshared this.
Michael Downey 🚩
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •Are you aware that government employees regularly participate in infosec events? And that >40% of the Tor Project's annual revenue comes from governments?
FoolishOwl
in reply to Michael Downey 🚩 • • •Michael Downey 🚩
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •Good luck with your cause.
AGF : poemproducer
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •always same, technology is bought by capital to protect capital via police state and miliary, inbuild ethics for the people needed
ari
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •FoolishOwl
in reply to ari • • •@ar @downey Basically Signal. Probably.
Another issue with Matrix is how it's de facto centralized under the control of Element, the company.
ari
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •@foolishowl @downey Signal doesn't support any kind of federation (at least with the official app, and the only official server), even though they (used to) claim that it's possible to enable it in the protocol, so it is actually centralized.
And relies on phone numbers as user IDs, which is, like, wtf?
FoolishOwl
in reply to ari • • •I didn't say it was flawless. Just that it doesn't work with states.
Probably.
Luna :circleA:
in reply to ari • • •ari
in reply to Luna :circleA: • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to ari • • •KitKat
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •@ar @luna @foolishowl @downey matrix.to links don't rely on matrix.to, you don't matrix.to to resolve these links.
And actually most groups are served on other servers as well
wakest ⁂
in reply to KitKat • • •KitKat
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •A matrix.to link does not depend on matrix.to. Clients can and do parse the link without accessing matrix.to
wakest ⁂
in reply to KitKat • • •KitKat
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Do you understand what I explained?
wakest ⁂
in reply to KitKat • • •The Doctor
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Alonealastalovedalongthe
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •j.r / Julian
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •silverwizard likes this.
Alexandre Dulaunoy
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Hypolite Petovan
in reply to Alexandre Dulaunoy • • •Alexandre Dulaunoy
in reply to Hypolite Petovan • • •Hypolite Petovan
in reply to Alexandre Dulaunoy • • •METADESTROYER !! (He/Him)
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to METADESTROYER !! (He/Him) • • •METADESTROYER !! (He/Him)
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to METADESTROYER !! (He/Him) • • •@EdenDestroyer (He/Him) Wow wut
element.io/blog/india-bans-fla…
Oh wow.
/via mastodon.matrix.org/@element/1…
@˗ˏˋ wakest ˎˊ˗ @Element
Element
2023-05-05 09:01:54
wakest ⁂
Unknown parent • • •clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
SR.Gray
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •ophiocephalic 🐍
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Something else about Element I've never seen much comment on but always really bothered me is this - why is it ok that the mobile app for a supposedly privacy-centric messenger is collecting all this telemetry?
apps.apple.com/app/vector/id10…
Element Messenger
App Storeclacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
FoolishOwl
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •alcinnz reshared this.
Flatbush Gardener 🌈
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •alcinnz
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •As far as I can tell, the XMPP project themselves do not have much more of an internet presence than what I'm managing on the side.
So I believe right now their funding is very meagre, relying on the sort of opensource contributions which have brought others so far!
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛 likes this.
Danger mouse
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •TBH I am very torn on this.
1. Even a non-profit has fund itself somehow. Public funding and government contracts make sense.
2. The alternative for non-US military and/or police would likely be to use one of the big messengers (e.g. WhatsApp) or buy from a company that does "security by obscurity".
In my opinion: Police/military will use some kind of messenger anyway. I would prefer if they used one with less backdoors and more security.
Of course it could happen that police and Matrix get all warm and cuddly with each other. This is definitely a thing that makes Matrix less trustworthy.
clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
in reply to Danger mouse • • •Accepting police like any other customer: Ok, fine.
Actively reaching out: Bad optics, risk for compromise.
Ding Dang Trevor Flowers
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •SiderAU
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Snail
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •... motherfucker
Okay, gonna phase element out of my ESL volunteer work I guess
𝚌𝚑𝚊𝚟𝚊
Unknown parent • • •Delta Chat: The e-mail messenger
delta.chatshreyan
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Mike [SEC=OFFICIAL]
in reply to FoolishOwl • • •@foolishowl @theruran @alcinnz @tigase in terms of ongoing provider costs, the server side is so lightweight as to barely register.
I provide XMPP messaging for Chinwag users automatically alongside their Fedi service and it's barely a blip in the stats compared to something like Mastodon.
maksu
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Just read the article. If I understood correctly, they seem to mean that they're selling services to help maintain servers, like live chat and such, and NOT that they're selling individual messages to governments.
A very poor choice of words there. I couldn't pick a worse set even if I tried.
𝓻𝓻𝓪
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •@theruran @alcinnz @tigase
Sorry to pop everyone's bubble but XMPP is also widely used in police and military applications. People need to be a bit more realistic about the dual-use nature of internet and computing tools.
It's a bad look to be advertising your cooperation with cops and fully mis-reading your audience here. Also, I do not condone it. However, to the audience: what did you expect? Secure communications is first and foremost a defense industry need.
If use and engagement with police and defense is your standard for whether or not to use a particular set of tools, then do I have some bad news regarding all of open source for you!
justJanne
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Police/Military/Government is the only major source of funding for encryption tools and encrypted messengers
Be it Element, Conversations or GPG. No one else is willing to pay enough
Refusing to sell would harm the free software project, but would do nothing against the police using matrix. It's free software after all and they can use it without any support contract. And some governments do exactly that
This is a situation where you can't win either way. Fuck capitalism 🤬
Audric
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •IAG
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Tigase
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •@theruran @alcinnz software licence (tigase.net/pricing-xmpp) and technical support (tigase.net/pricing-technical)
Tigase is almost completely FOSS/AGPL (save for advanced clustering) and can be deployed and used as such.
Pricing plan for Software License
tigase.net🍃 Nick 🍁
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •its a good reminder to work out better community funded and accountable models.
"Open source" isn't a funding model.
wakest ⁂
in reply to 🍃 Nick 🍁 • • •Harris-Walz 2024 🇺🇸 🇺🇦
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •alcinnz
in reply to 𝓻𝓻𝓪 • • •@rra @theruran @tigase I find it unfair to judge devs by who are using our software, we might need to accept uses we disagree with to do the most good. (I don't disagree with private software, as long as those who use your software gets the Four Freedoms).
I think it is totally fair to judge us by who we're engaging with!
Personally (privileged) I can't get all that worked up about 1312, but I see the counterarguments missing the mark.
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jabberati
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Haelwenn /элвэн/ likes this.
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Martin
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •@element
silverwizard
in reply to Martin • •Martin
in reply to silverwizard • • •I know what the police is. There might be bad cops but in general they are doing an important job.
@liaizon @element
cel
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to cel • • •Gautgaut
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Usually the alternative is to use a service from the GAFAM, so I think what Element does is more than OK.
ari
Unknown parent • • •Inken Paper 🇵🇸
Unknown parent • • •ari
Unknown parent • • •wakest ⁂
Unknown parent • • •Inken Paper 🇵🇸
in reply to ari • • •FoolishOwl
in reply to wakest ⁂ • • •Steven Roose
in reply to 𝓻𝓻𝓪 • • •@rra @theruran @alcinnz @tigase IMO there is a huge difference in having the police use your software and the police being part of the funding of the main software provider for a protocol. The former is obviously something you have no control over. While the latter can cause reliance on the police and give them influence/power over the direction the protocol can move towards.
#xmpp #jabber #matrix
alcinnz
in reply to Steven Roose • • •Hypolite Petovan
Unknown parent • • •Hypolite Petovan
Unknown parent • • •Gabriele Svelto
in reply to Hypolite Petovan • • •Gabriele Svelto
in reply to Hypolite Petovan • • •wakest ⁂
in reply to Gabriele Svelto • • •Hypolite Petovan
Unknown parent • • •Hypolite Petovan
Unknown parent • • •@Gabriele Svelto I really don't have to explain anything to you, especially not something you framed in bad faith. Obviously we don't have the same values, and you can't talk anyone out of their values, the same way I probably cant talk to you into growing some.
Values are only meaningful if you are making concessions for them. Pointing out that these personal concessions are somehow unwarranted or inconsistent will only get you a cold shoulder.