convenient.email

David Revoy mastodon (AP)
Sunday, I was happy to give a talk at the FSF #LibrePlanet, wearing the Tshirt I designed for them (photo). But later that day, Richard Stallman announced his return to the FSF's Board of Directors. In this situation, I'll no longer invest my energy for them... ๐Ÿ˜ฟ
#fsf #rms
Image/photo
Skinny Feels mastodon (AP)
I am happy that you have stuck by your principles and have chosen to do that.
Stallman poses a danger to the system not only because of his ideas about Free Software but because he kept alive the approach with which we have obtained all our rights: radicalism. The system try to discredit Stallman even with fake news and to incorporate only what suits its interests under the name of "Open Source" leaving out the rest of the rights-based political movement (Free Software).

I can't believe you fell for this fake news too ๐Ÿ˜•
JordiGH mastodon (AP)
Oh, stfu.

It's not fake news, you can easily read the documented decades of bad behaviour from RMS. We're not upset about his uncompromising attitude towards free software. We're talking about him being a constant sex pest and his decades of support for pedophilia.
I read Stallman's original words. If you are so sure of what you are saying, please report the offending texts here.

For some reason (๐Ÿ˜ ) those who attack Stallman never report his words and context. Those who defend it calmly report them:

https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web โ€‹

I call this defaming someone with fake news.
JordiGH mastodon (AP)
Nah, stfu, you already read them and you can't see how he's a sex pest or the time the rubbed his underwear on a woman's forehead without even asking her and you think that's fine, then I can't really help you.
That story about him was a non-story, IMO.
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
More words, reasons and thoughts on this fresh blog-post:
https://www.davidrevoy.com/article828/rms-is-back-at-the-fsf
> But nowadays, I deeply think he is a bad representative for the community.

Why?

Content warning: birdsite, answer

It's unfortunate you think RMS is not good for free software, when he's doing full time voluntary work for advancement of free software for 37 years.

Anyways it's your personal dicision.
@Starfish :emacs: :trisquel: @David Revoy It's wonderful that rms has been working so hard for so many years creating the movement, and we wouldn't be where we are without that work and dedication.

It is unfortunate some of what he does is holding back the credibility and progress of the movement.

He is less suitable as a leader in the 2021 environment than he was in the 1985 environment, and it is unfortunate that some people still brought him back to a leadership position.
Adrian Cochrane mastodon (AP)
I wonder if distancing that personality cult, let alone the problems with Stallman himself, is the best thing for our movement... How much overlap is there between that crowd & those that villify forks of e.g. GIMP, it takes the same sort of hero worship to miss our principles like that!

P.S. Great talk! And I love your Pepper & Carrot comics!
Be mastodon (AP)
Do you want to sign this? https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
Done by email since 30min; it might take time to get part of the next triage ๐Ÿ™‚ Thanks for the link.
Alex mastodon (AP)
did you read this: https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web

I read what RMS said and I think the fuss created around misinterpretations and misquotes from what he said is much more harmful to a community at whole, than what he actually said.
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
I read it, it was sent to me a lot this afternoon: I try to read various sources of info to keep rational opinion.

Still, I think if it was only misinterpretations; it would have been easy for him to fix it, clarify, adjust and post disambiguation when it was time. I see that very often on communication issues on other Floss project...

But even when he came back; it was made without clarification, disambiguation: just imposed out of the blue.

Definitely, not my cup of tea... ๐Ÿต
mdn pleroma (AP)
Just to add another something for the context of the usa. Even ESR got banned from the OSI, and he was a co-founder, and for even less than RMS.
https://www.i-programmer.info/news/136-open-source/13535-co-founder-of-osi-banned-from-.html
@mdn @David Revoy @Alex I think you are trying to make the opposite point, but to me the OSI vs esr resolution was perfectly reasonable. There were formal rules of civility, esr didn't live up to them, so he wasn't welcome.

It just shows that rms got away with so much more, including violating the code of conduct at a LibrePlanet, before he had to go.

And yet he's still allowed back at LibrePlanet, that's the first shocker, and on top of that he takes that opportunity to announce that he's back at the FSF, which is even more unbelievable given the number of people who have spoken out about how this would harm the FSF and free software.
Still, I think if it was only misinterpretations; it would have been easy for him to fix it, clarify, adjust and post disambiguation when it was time. I see that very often on communication issues on other Floss project...
But even when he came back; it was made without clarification, disambiguation: just imposed out of the blue.
I'm sorry to keep this going, but that's not factual. Things were clarified and disambiguated, first by himself and then to great length by others. Only the clarifications and disambiguations didn't get any of the attention nor the bloodlust of the bashing and accusations.

And I don't understand why "imposed out of the blue". This was the result of an election, a result which was unsurprising given the circumstances under which he was forced to resign, and the support he enjoys. People accuse his supporters of being fanboys, but it's the haters that have taken social media by the storm with battle cries, while his supporters have for the most part tried to bring facts and arguments to the discussion, and sent mentions of support directly to the FSF (to my knowledge numerous, at least considering the people i know) sometimes for fear of mob attacks.
@Alexandre Hannud Abdo @David Revoy
And I don't understand why "imposed out of the blue". This was the result of an election
The board elects its own directors. There was no prior indication that rms would suddenly be back. For anyone not on the board, including LibrePlanet and FSF staff, this was out of the blue.
This entry was edited (6 months ago)
I hope you are doing well. Thank you so much for standing up.
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
:blobcatheart: I'm doing ok thanks to the focus on last week of production for episode 34 of Pepper&Carrot.

I feel I'll only start to digest emotionaly a lot of things in start April when it will be posted. Thank you very much for sending kind words.
Elias mastodon (AP)
Are you sure you are not falling for a smear campaign here? I recommend reading this: https://www.wetheweb.org/post/cancel-we-the-web
What does that say beyond "These people were not harassed"?
Elias mastodon (AP)
That wetheweb text says several things that are relevant here, I really recommend reading it. If you did read it and thought it was nothing, then maybe go back and read again a bit more carefully. One thing it explains is about the thing that triggered it all, the contents of some emails, pointing out that RMS did in fact not say what people claimed. The truth matters, I think. Also... (to be continued)
Elias mastodon (AP)
That text also says something about the kind of person RMS is, someone who cares a lot about right and wrong and who tends to be frank about his opinions, and how that influenced what happened. It also says something about how rumors can work, and at least for me that makes me think that we should be careful to check what basis we have before accusing someone. If the accusation is serious, that does not mean we should care less about what basis we have for it.
Might I recommend not reading a text about an event that happened less than two years ago and instead remember it.

Remember the stories of undergrad women who had to hide behind plants. Not about the people *in* the movement, but instead the people who were kept out of the movement. About the people RMS hurt, not just those who he didn't.

Do you think that a person defending their hero is the same as hundreds of identical stories?
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
This is textbook hero apologia and doesn't get across any solid point. It is actually possible to separate RMS's work and personality by celebrating his past contributions and at the same time not giving him any symbolic prominence like at the FSF anymore.
@Elias @David Revoy I think the text is correct that one shouldn't be punished for having unpopular opinions, but being the leader and representative (EDIT: clarification: or as now in his return, in a leading role) of an organization isn't a human right.

Stallman wasn't pushed out by one incident, his departure was the climax of years of people saying that his opinions and actions outside free software philosophy and development were a distraction from the free software message and causing harm to the image and mission of the FSF and the free software movement.
This entry was edited (6 months ago)
Be reshared this.
Elias mastodon (AP)
Thanks @clacke for being the voice of reason. ๐Ÿ™‚ Maybe worth noting that RMS is not back as "the leader" of FSF, he is not Executive Director (that is John Sullivan) and not President of the Board of directors (that is Geoffrey Knauth). RMS is right now one of six members of the Board of directors: https://www.fsf.org/about/staff-and-board Is that still too much of a leading role, I'm not sure, but anyway it is not the same as before.
@Elias Yes, thanks for letting me know I was unclear. I was referring to his previous position in my first paragraph, and now he is back in a leadership position, but not the top one.
JordiGH mastodon (AP)
I'm sorry you've upset the RMS fan club.

I believe you made the right choice. I am also thinking of how to disassociate myself from the FSF.
raised on REPLs mastodon (AP)
Thank you for your work, and for speaking up about this.
Ni! I have read and thought a lot about this issue and, with all honestly, I cannot classify it as anything else than a smear campaign.

His actual words were not bigoted, not prejudiced, nor harmful, nor malicious, specially in the context they were said, and even his reaction to the whole affair was reasonable, measured and respectful. This is not about placing him in a pedestal, just being fair to a person.

The last few people I heard repeating this, when I asked them, admitted they never even read the original dialogue or read any critique of the accusations. It seems to me that this is the actual thing we should worry about in this affair.
Marcus mastodon (AP)
I really like the design and I enjoyed your talk! Thank you very much
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
Done, thank you. ๐Ÿ‘
JordiGH mastodon (AP)
Nah, you can stfu too.
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
Indeed, any credible source for these claims?
Which claims? There's credible sources for lots of things.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
That Stallman's behaviour harms the FSF.
But do you believe the women who say that they have had to hide from RMS due to sexual harassment?
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
I'm not aware of such claims.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
More importantly is the board aware of these claims?
I cannot believe that they board is unaware. I can't bring you back to two years when people were discussing this, but people brought a lot of statements forward. The main accusation was that undergrad women in CS were recommended to carry plants and leave plants on their desks in order to scare him off.

These kinds of tools are not the one off of a person who did a bad things, these are the tools to avoid an unaccountable person who cannot be handled.
Roland Häder doesn't like this.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
Sexual harassment is a serious issue.

I find it difficult to understand how something like this has allegedly been going on for decades with the public knowing about this.
This entry was edited (6 months ago)
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Because people at all levels have been covering him for decades as well. Even in this thread people are still trying to claim it is a "smear campaign" or "fake news", focusing solely on his past contributions or alleging autism even though RMS himself denied being autistic.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
That is a collective failure!

No wonder people feel disappointed about this organisation.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
If a grassroots campaign started by a student can lead to the resignation of RMS (and only him) from the FSF, then what more do you need to establish that RMSโ€™s very existence is harmful to the FSF?

Either the allegations were flimsy and he shouldnโ€™t have resigned in the first place, or they werenโ€™t and the FSF shouldnโ€™t have reinstated him. As it stands, the current situation can only be understood as the FSF paying lip service to the RMS resignation campaign and now they feel like they donโ€™t have to anymore, and this is bad optics regardless of what RMS actually did or said.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
I'm sorry I was not aware of the circumstances surrounding his resignation. Hence my question.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
Let me say that I agree with you over a lot of stuff but I have my personal bias, that is clear.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
That's shocking. That says a lot about the board if that's true. What on earth are they doing?

Thanks @Hank G โ˜‘๏ธ I appricate the link.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
They are covering for a well-known creepy figure, this isn't a rare nor surprising behavior, unfortunately.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
But you see that's part if the problem. Reducing behaviour to creepiness is counter productive.

It has to be abound clear boundaries! Not about creeps and freaks!

Clearly unprofessional behaviour in the context of not-for-profit orgs and allegations of serious criminal deeds crosses the line.

There can be no excuse for this.
This entry was edited (6 months ago)
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
What difference do you make between freaks and creeps? It is entirely possible to be freaky without being creepy, and the other way around.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
I'm sure there is a world of difference. But both are unhelpful reductions in this case.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I don't think so, his creepy behavior is both what constitutes the unprofessional part, the sexual harassment part and the overall impropriety part. He isn't criticized because he is different (the usual "freak" definition), but because he is negatively affecting people around him (my "creepy" definition).
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
He isn't criticized because he is different (the usual "freak" definition)

But don't you see my friend?

That's precisely what people have done. ' Oh he is just a freak...' That was the defense I assume by those who covered up.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Ah yes, I see what you mean. That's exactly the dynamic at play pretending RMS is autistic and then casting any criticism of his as ableist.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
So a fictitious example would be:

1) Board member turns up to board meeting --where most people dress causal -- looking like someone who slept in a bin. / v. /
2) Board member instilling deep seated fear in org member that causes serious distress to them

That's what I mean @Hypolite Petovan . It's about unpacking these labels to aid decision making what crosses the line and what doesn't matter by at large despite we may not like it.
Roland Hรคder friendica (via ActivityPub)
#RMS is the founder of the @Free Software Foundation which does good to the world, btw. He is also the spiritual founder of #GNU . Both are big life's work nobody has done before. As I have not seen the scene with my own eyes and only heard it 2nd, I tend to politely disagree with the ladies. Nothing disrespectful towards them. And, the assertions have been falsified against him.

Maybe he needed some downtime from all of this? See it this way: Your whole life has been smashed to pieces, brought down as your life's work is not respected anymore. That's hard to take for everyone.

I know this will raise a lot SJWs against me but I don't care.
Andy H3 friendica (via ActivityPub)
I tend to politely disagree with the ladies

Roland it's okay to disagree with us! I appreciate your good spirit and politeness. ๐Ÿ˜Š

Hypolite made a valid point about differentiating person and work. See here: https://friendica.mrpetovan.com/display/735a2029-1260-5a08-577e-505883638333


I'd like to pick up on your point about 1st/ 2nd hand accounts. There's a wonderful clip by a German physicists (in English), who argues why a flat earth "Science" is incorrect but NOT stupid!

She concludes that we can't always rely on first-hand accounts, because that would imply that each of us would need to start from scratch proving and disproving everything; she points to the necessity of trust in evidence that others have collected before us. It's just an example to illustrate the problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8DQSM-b2cc
Nobody is claiming RMS is a saint - he even jokes about that himself, as you probably know - but it is a fact that he left the board because about a year ago he was accused with lies and slander about personal views he discussed on an issue whose seriousness he did not belittle and whose victims he did not blame, opinions he had respectfully issued in a friendly forum (a "safe space" in modern jargon). And that this is not the first time people misrepresent his controversial - but not evil and not even ill-meaning - views on social issues. Please see, if you haven't yet (sorry for not introducing them earlier, had to dig this up from year old mail archives):

https://sterling-archermedes.github.io/

https://jorgemorais.gitlab.io/justice-for-rms/index.html

Unfortunately, those lies and slanders have not been reflected upon at all by the accusers and are at the heart of the renewed attacks. In a more honest, respectful and humane community, this could have led to a productive discussion about his ideas and behavior, for which he is actually known to have retreated in some cases, and more importantly a discussion about our culture and how it embeds us with perspectives that the guillotine only silences but doesn't solve. Instead, what we have is a hard-line mob-rule mad-hatter witch-hunt smear campaign against an individual, that only detracts from our common cause, divides us and crystalizes oppositions, and profits our common opponents.
Andy C pleroma (AP)
Is it just me or does anyone else find it amusing that the Debian project lead blogs on, err, LiveJournal.
@Andy C @Andy H3 @silverwizard @David Revoy @Hank G โ˜‘๏ธ I was going to say "but isn't it free software?", but that was until 2014 apparently.
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
> I don't know why you felt the need to "stand" for
Because my name was attached to the activity of the FSF at the time: 2x Libreplanet talks + FSF35 T-shirts.

> hope this is not for your patreon and youtube audience
No, no one. I was on Libreplanet during the annuncement, I waited 24h to give time of FSF to clarify, and then I took this decision all alone by myself. See the date.

> freedom of speech
https://xkcd.com/1357/

> "about his condition"
What condition? (sources?)
krutor aka Simon friendica (via ActivityPub)
sorry @BeBel - BELXIT but as far as you are not his therapist, you shouldn't say this, even if he seems to have an autistic behavior. Even if you would be an psychologist, such a "remote diagnostic" is not reliable. So please don't try to do so. In this case it doesn't matter, even if a person is autistic they dont have to act like an a***. Ask some autistic people you know ;)

A founder or important person to the movement can be very important to it and his/her behavior has a big influence how (in this case) the open source movement is seen in the public.

I personaly think rms should do at least an apology and sign some sort social - code of conduct, but better he should resign and give his replacement an good start and support him/her and they also should invent some real control power in the fsfe. That would show some true greatness. But I am afraid he is not able to do so.
@David Revoy
David Revoy mastodon (AP)
agressive + accusation + unsourced = block

@krutor
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
This "mea culpa" just talked about a person in position to address RMS behavior but on the contrary he preferred clean up his hands like "Pontio Pilato" and just raising up his head after joining a collective attack against one individual... Very inspiring...
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
At this point RMS hardly is just "one individual". He wasn't picked at random.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
Dear @David Revoy after reading this I also will stop to follow you.

All of you are confusing personal bias with actual facts, attacking RMS for a behavior which is probably spread over the 90% in whole IT industries at any level. We reached the point to decided if it is better mobbing RMS or closing on eye over GAFAM that every day besides making the world a worst place is injecting moneys in the open source and free software space. I think this is the real point.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
This is one of those situations where the method works against the good intentions. If RMS is really an unbearable issue for the whole community the lex talionis is not the right answer.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
This ancient rule about settling 1-on-1 disputes doesn't apply here either. RMS didn't do anything to me personally, and yet I believe based on his public words and the various accounts of people who have been around him in a public capacity that he shouldn't get the prominent public role of FSF board member. That's all there is to it.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
So do I but the people that publicly stood up against him aren't in a credible nor autonomous position.
So you're saying that public figures cannot have a moral stance? Or do you not believe the women who state that RMS has harassed them?
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
This is a very subjective stance. Although if you went over his public threads about controversial subjects and didn't see any problem with it regarding public representation, I understand why you would feel the need to discredit the people who publicly stood up to ask for his resignation from his public FSF role.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
I did not discredit anyone I just advanced reservation about their intellectual honesty; which I do not trust but you do.

Please don't raise up the topic of the sexual harassment cause there are plenty of real women's lawsuits against IBM, RH, M$, Google and more but none of those people stood up against those corporations... C'mon...
@Daniel @Hypolite Petovan @Andy H3 @silverwizard @David Revoy @Hank G โ˜‘๏ธ It's a pretty big difference between one of many individuals at a huge company being brought to justice for criminal behavior and the spokesperson, manager (back in 2019) and founder of a movement and two orgs being told he is not the best spokesperson and manager for the movement and the orgs.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Advancing reservation about someone's intellectual honesty without proof they lied is exactly what "discredit" is about.

I'm not sure why you're bringing a straw-man argument about private corporations into this conversation as they aren't anything like what the FSF is. Even if you were right that "none of those people stood up against those corporations" and you simply don't know that, it still wouldn't make their call for RMS to resign from the FSF again any less intellectually honest.

What you're doing is setting an impossible moral standard for people to reach and discredit them totally when they inevitably don't, which is textbook intellectual dishonesty.
This entry was edited (6 months ago)
Is he claiming that the people who are saying RMS is bad because sexual harassment don't say other people are bad because sexual harassment?!
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
Yes, and consequently they are unfairly targeting RMS for <unknown reason>.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
Dear Hypolite,

we do not know personally each other but I have a true respect for you for some words you gave me once, let's do this pacifically, as friends, even though I have not been honored by this yet.

Advancing reservation about the integrity or good faith of someone because you think he/she might be under, direct or indirect, external pressures is totally legitimate. I have never said once those people lied, I have just said I don't trust their good faith and therefore the double measurement.

And for me the "straw-man" argument is exactly the point since those people are related with those corporations that accidentally are historically against RMS and vice-versa.

When you attack a person over a moral profile you had better to take care from what pulpit you are going to talk, for me the pulpit where those people are talking is not trustworthy.

For what I know those people didn't stand against those corporations publicly but you cannot against a corporation's behavior and simultaneously work or being related with this unless you are applying the aforementioned "double measurement".
What you're doing is setting an impossible moral standard for people to reach and discredit them totally when they inevitably don't, which is textbook intellectual dishonesty.

And not my friend I am not doing anything of this, simply I don't trust those people, and the method, the tone and words those people used just reinforce my position.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
๐Ÿคฆโ€โ™‚๏ธ
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
You don't have to trust them personally for any reason, but as soon as you voice this reservation publicly like you're doing in this conversation, you better have substantial evidence/arguments to back this reservation otherwise you will expectedly be called out on it like I'm doing.

And no, "they work at a company I don't like the policies" isn't a substantial argument. Double measurement is actually a great part of having a good judgement. You need to be able to appreciate the context difference in order to be fair, otherwise, it'll go like this quote: "The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread."

More importantly, we humans are extremely bad at appreciating other people's judgement based on our own biases and morals. This makes any accusation of "hypocrisy" like you've been doing pretty shallow for me since you just are showing you can't put your self in these people's shoes.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
Things are a little bit complex than the way your are laying them out; but basically because, I think, you are assuming that the previous resignation was fair and right.

On the contrary I think the former resignation was wrong while the mediatic campaign on top of that was a big mistification, but overall unrelated with the FSF, since happened in different place with a different role. -- Just to clarify RMS once again missed the opportunity to stay in silence -- and what is happened recently, for me, it is just the its prosecution, eventually are involved practically the same people using the same pattern.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I tend to agree with you the first campaign was mostly unrelated to the FSF itself. However now the FSF is directly responsible since they privately elected to reinstate RMS as a member of the board after accepting his resignation. So now it actually is less about RMS than the FSF behavior.

If the initial resignation was wrong, they shouldn't have accepted it. Since they went forward with it for whatever reason, rolling it back now is just a terrible public move, and it has little to do with RMS's behavior and speech anymore.

So it really isn't the same issue anymore, although it isn't surprising the same people that were involved in the first campaign are involved in this one, after all RMS is on the FSF board, again.

Also I'd like you not to use any judiciary term about this event since this isn't a trial in a court of law.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
The FSF has been a disaster over last years, totally ineffective, a lot of the people against RMS don't follow it from centuries, no one actually follow him, but a lot of people have still a strong feeling against him.

I think the board should resign for the foolishness, who are those people? Anyone can change his mind but because the sensitive RMS' topic they demonstrated a complete lack of wisdom and communication.

I won't support the FSF anymore (I have been actually donate yearly), I engaged them on Fediverse and they never replied, I sent them a lot of emails and them never replied one.

FSF should be a beacon against some nefarious powers but at this point better crush it down and build something completely new. We cannot be anchored to him forever but so far someone with the guts and vision to go against the stream hasn't appear yet.
Hypolite Petovan friendica (via ActivityPub)
I tend to agree with you about the FSF, however I don't agree with your dismissal of people who are against RMS despite not following him as I'm among them. Not following RMS is different from him being in a public representation position on the FSF board so regardless of what the FSF was and is now, I believe the initial calls for his resignation were justified. Since then the FSF has proven to be utterly terrible, and neither of these issues require to be actively following RMS to be relevant.
Daniel friendica (via ActivityPub)
Fair enough, I got and respect your points.